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rowanlim
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 Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Conversion to/from Islam |
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Hey all 
I watched this on the TV & read up about it on the news...Read on & discuss your views. I think this is a pressing issue, something that we Malaysians need to pay attention to as religion & multiracial harmony is an integral part of our society.
Basically the Malaysian Bar Council held a forum discussing the religion conversion issues. It got tense with protestors outside & the forum had to be stopped.
3 quotes:
1. By Tan Sri Dr Koh (Gerakan)
| Quote: | Gerakan acting president Tan Sri Dr Koh Tsu Koon has urged the joint committee of civil and syariah lawyers to meet soon to resolve religious conversion issues because if left unresolved they would continue to haunt Malaysia's multi-religious society.
He said the Government should convene the joint committee as soon as possible to quickly discuss and recommend proper measures to be taken to formulate, clarify and rectify procedures related to marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims, conversion, custody of children and burial rites.
Koh said the joint committee was formed to work out solutions following several controversies that emerged related to Muslim converts after death or after the breakdown of marriages.
"It is urgent to reconvene this committee which, I am told, has not met for quite some time," he said in a statement on Sunday.
He said if left unresolved controversy and conflicts over family matters related to religious conversion would persist.
He made the call while criticising Saturday's rowdy demonstration by 300 people that almost turned violent as they protested against the Bar Council's open forum on conversion to Islam.
Dr Koh also specifically condemned the use of kerosene bombs on the house formerly owned by Bar Council president Datuk Ambiga Sreenevasan, which is now the house of Wanita Umno deputy chief Datuk Seri Shahrizat Abdul Jalil.
"It is regrettable that some members of political parties such as PAS, PKR and Umno were involved in the almost violent demonstration," said Dr Koh, who pointed out the involvement of and strong words uttered by PAS Youth chief Datuk Salahuddin Ayub and Kulim-Bandar Baru MP Zulkifli Noordin or PKR.
"We should be aware of sensitivities about religions by all respective believers. Therefore, all politicians must take a rational and reasonable approach to look at how to fine-tune the relevant laws and procedures to avoid or minimise potential inter-religious controversies and conflicts," he added. |
Link 1
2. By Datuk Seri Najib (DPM)
| Quote: | The Bar Council was being �stubborn� in going ahead with its open forum on religious conversion, Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak said.
The Deputy Prime Minister said he had already expected an extreme reaction from some quarters.
�We had expected this to happen. I've already said this before -- don't make it an open forum, do it behind closed doors.
�We expected this incident because the issue that was being discussed was sensitive,� he said after launching the Federation of Malay Economic Bodies (Gabem) exhibition and convention at the Putra World Trade Centre here on Sunday.
Najib was commenting on the abrupt conclusion of the Bar Council's forum on conversion to Islam on Saturday, in which groups of protestors held a noisy gathering outside the Council's headquarters demanding that the organisors stop the function.
The protestors had threatened to storm the building, which forced the police to urge the Bar Council to wrap up their forum.
He said it would be up to the police and the Home Ministry to use the Internal Security Act on the forum's organisers. |
Link 2
3. By Lim Kit Siang
| Quote: | The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order as well as religious harmony in Malaysia on the eve of the 51st Merdeka anniversary.
Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.
As the Bar Council has made it clear that the forum on religious conversion is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims but to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws, greater understanding, tolerance and sensitivity should have been shown by all Malaysians concerned.
Such understanding, tolerance and sensitivity would undoubtedly have been present in the first four decades of Malaysian nationhood and I have no doubt that if such a forum had been organised ten years ago, there would not have been the insensitive, intolerant and deplorable reaction evident today.
The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.
Are there any Cabinet Ministers who are prepared to raise this episode at Wednesday�s Cabinet meeting to uphold the right to have such forums to be held?
This is unlikely considering the public stand that has been taken by Umno leaders, including the Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak, Home Minister, Hamid Albar, the Minister in the Prime Minister�s Department, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi and the Education Minister Hishammuddin Hussein demanding that the Bar Council forum should be called off.
Hishammuddin even warned that the Bar Council should not �test the patience of the Malays and Muslims� while the Malacca Chief Minister Mohd Ali Rustam said the Internal Security Act should be used purportedly for the continued questioning of Article 121 of the Federal Constitution �resulting in racial tension�. |
Link 3
My opinions
1. The protestors should have spent a lovely Saturday afternoon minding their business instead of acting like hooligans. The police should have stopped the protestors, not the forum. Look who's being professional.
2. This is an issue we have to settle quickly, too many times have we been in "sticky" situations related to religion conversion.
3. The Bar Council was right to take this proactive measure but the timing was perhaps not wise, with all the tension brewing on the political scene.
Feel free to discuss.
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rowanlim
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: MALAYSIA: Rights Body Faces Downgrade by UN |
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Possibly a different topic but well, sounds related:
| Quote: | The Malaysian Human Rights Commission or �Suhakam� risks a downgrade by the United Nations for failing to proactively defend human rights, combat an alarming rise in rights abuse of students, minorities and indigenous people.
Civil society critics are slamming the government-funded organisation, managed by former civil servants and individuals close to the political establishment, of becoming a mouthpiece for authorities.
They say if the government does not urgently amend Suhakam�s founding laws and make it truly independent, it is at risk of being downgraded to Grade B by the International Coordinating Committee (ICC) of National Institutions for the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights.
In April, the U.N. body conducted a comprehensive review of Suhakam�s human rights compliance and found it is not up to par with the Paris Principles. As a result Suhakam has been given one year to improve in several core areas --investigation, compliance and enforcement of decisions and independence of governance.
"This possible downgrading is a serious slap on the face of Suhakam and the government," said Yap Swee Seng, executive director of SUARAM, a leading rights non-government organisation (NGO).
If downgraded, Suhakam loses its right to participate in United Nations Human Rights Council sessions.
It would also be stripped of its full membership in the Asia Pacific Forum and be relegated to a non-voting member.
"Both are serious embarrassments and would make a mockery of Malaysia�s 2006 pledge to the U.N. that it will take proactive and innovative measures to promote and protect human rights," Yap told IPS.
In 1993, the U.N. General Assembly adopted the Paris Principles which assigns Grade A status for full compliance, Grade B for observer status and Grade C for non-compliance.
"The ICC also said the two-year tenure of Suhakam commissioners was too short and additionally highlighted the need to ensure different segments of society are fairly represented," Yap said. "The ICC also said it is important for Suhakam to engage more closely with international human rights systems."
In response to the ICC report over 40 NGOs jointly called on the government, in a memorandum, to immediately amend the Human Rights Commission of Malaysia Act 1999 to make Suhakam a truly independent and effective organisation by putting it under a parliament select committee.
Currently Suhakam reports to the prime minister�s office.
"The ICC�s warning to downgrade Suhakam indicates their grave concern with regards to the Malaysian government�s management of Suhakam," said Ragu Kesavan, vice-chairman of the Malaysian Bar Council representing 13,000 lawyers in the country.
"Suhakam has fallen short in its mission to promote and protect human rights," he told IPS in an interview.
The Paris Principles are the international standards for an independent and effective national human rights organisation. In its April review, the ICC gave notice to Suhakam to "provide, in writing, within one year documentary evidence deemed necessary to establish its continued conformity with the Paris Principles." Failure would mean Suhakam�s possible downgrade.
"It is a mechanism to shame nationally and internationally and to press for major improvements," said Yap. "It should not be seen as interference in domestic affairs. It is for the larger good of Malaysia."
"Suhakam has to act now to make urgent changes or face these penalties," Yap said. "The core concerns are independence, transparency and effectiveness." He added that the ��recommendations are a timely reminder that the Suhakam was not established for dressing up purposes but to improve on the government�s poor human rights record��.
"The credibility and the stature of Malaysia as a member of the United Nations Human Rights Council will suffer if the government does not act immediately to resolve the grouses," he added.
"These will require a major overhaul, amendment to the law establishing Suhakam, appointing individuals of the highest integrity to run it and placing under parliament and not the executive," Yap said.
Currently Suhakam has powers to visit places of detention, make recommendations, issue public statements on human rights, conduct programmes and seminars and workshops. But It has no powers to compel implementation of any of its recommendations and many of its reports are gathering dust in government archives.
Responding, Suhakam chairman Abu Talib Othman dismissed the criticism that Suhakam is a lame duck, saying the government had considered Suhakam recommendations in areas like gender inequality, education and free and fair elections.
"Our mandate is to only advise, it is the decision of the government to implement our recommendations," he said in a statement on Jul. 29.
Suhakam vice-chairman Simon Sipaun said the possible ICC downgrading was "unjustified" because Suhakam had improved and was freely carrying out its mission without government interference.
"It is not fair for ICC to judge our performance from a distance," said another Suhakam commissioner Chiam Heng Keng. "The ICC should come down to the ground to see how we work."
Yap however said the ICC action should not be taken defensively but seen as an "an excellent opportunity" for the authorities to show they have the political will to change, to protect and promote human rights.
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Source
Can I say I saw this coming?[/quote]
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calebdanvers
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 1206
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Conversion to/from Islam |
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| rowanlim wrote: | 3. By Lim Kit Siang
The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order as well as religious harmony in Malaysia on the eve of the 51st Merdeka anniversary.
Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.
As the Bar Council has made it clear that the forum on religious conversion is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims but to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws, greater understanding, tolerance and sensitivity should have been shown by all Malaysians concerned.
Such understanding, tolerance and sensitivity would undoubtedly have been present in the first four decades of Malaysian nationhood and I have no doubt that if such a forum had been organised ten years ago, there would not have been the insensitive, intolerant and deplorable reaction evident today.
The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.
Are there any Cabinet Ministers who are prepared to raise this episode at Wednesday�s Cabinet meeting to uphold the right to have such forums to be held?
This is unlikely considering the public stand that has been taken by Umno leaders, including the Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak, Home Minister, Hamid Albar, the Minister in the Prime Minister�s Department, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi and the Education Minister Hishammuddin Hussein demanding that the Bar Council forum should be called off.
Hishammuddin even warned that the Bar Council should not �test the patience of the Malays and Muslims� while the Malacca Chief Minister Mohd Ali Rustam said the Internal Security Act should be used purportedly for the continued questioning of Article 121 of the Federal Constitution �resulting in racial tension�. |
this is absolute bull****!! i cant believe this came from this douchebag here who's none other than lim kit siang..a TOTAL FLIP FLOP. when anwar's demonstrations were quelled by the police, we didnt see him saying it was the right thing to do. and now, when the police didnt come down hard on that 'bar council forum' demonstration, he said the police had failed malaysians. what kind of **** is this? is he trying to send us a daunting message that the DEMONSTRATIONS he's revered to all this while shud be banned and condemned?
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rowanlim
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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^Looks like he's a hypocrite...The big issue is should there be a protest against the forum? Should there even be a forum?
I was shocked to see scuffling outside the forum. Violence on TV. Not something we'd see everyday.
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calebdanvers
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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the forum has crossed the limit actually. when we talk bout religions, its forever supersensitive. looking at israel and palestine is enough to keep us from going at it.
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rowanlim
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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So you thought they shouldn't have that forum? I thought it is good to talk things over, not to demonstrate with petty gestures & screaming profanities. Not to mention sending a small bomb to someone's house.
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calebdanvers
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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the thg is, that forum didnt include muslim clergymen who obviously know more bout islam that those law ppl do. no doubt bout that. thats the reason those ppl demonstrated against that forum..
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rowanlim
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: |
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^So it was just a bunch of lawyers? Now that's nuts haha
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calebdanvers
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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yeah....only a bunch of lousy lawyers who are only good at blabbering and jabbering away. they shudnt hav come up with that forum. no!!! they shudnt hav even thought of it as they are only lawyers. who are they to question islamic laws? i cant discount the fact that they are trying to champion the cause of fairness. but is it really worth trading peace off with sth that will unleash hell in malaysia? i dun see any positives coming out of that forum except vexing the muslims in this country. when are those lawyers ever gonna learn to grow up?
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rowanlim
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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^Sounds reasonable. We can applaud that they want to discuss this issue but not the way they handled it :/
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radin87
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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yes thats right.. a mere lawyer doesn't have the right to talk about islamic law..
getting an A in Agama Islam or in law is still not enough.. |
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rowanlim
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Back to the harsh reality |
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Interesting article.
| Quote: |
Wednesday August 13, 2008
Back to the harsh reality
COMMENT BY BARADAN KUPPUSAMY
Saturday's incident where a group forcefully stopped a forum on Muslim conversion may signal the beginning of the end of the public euphoria following Pakatan Rakyat's victory in several states in March.
Before March 8, it was the DAP that was behind many of the forums and seminars but since it won big and formed the government in Penang and is a coalition partner in Perak and Selangor, the party has organised fewer forums but more victory dinners.
It is as if the problems of society have all lifted after March 8, a feeling prevalent in blogs and websites that Malaysia has finally arrived, and the problems of race and religion, the two hot potatoes, are things of the past.
Saturday�s gate-crashing by Muslim NGOs and sudden disruptions of a Bar Council-organised forum titled �Conversion to Islam: Article 121 (1a) of the Federal Constitution � Subashini and Shamala Revisited� may well put to rest that post-March 8 euphoria.
It may well mark the end of a period of �irrational exuberance,� to borrow a phrase from former US Federal Reserve Board chairman Alan Greenspan who blamed �irrational exuberance� for the stock market booms of the 1990s.
You can�t blame some sections of the Malaysian public for feeling the same kind of exuberance after the March 8 general election which saw the opposition not only winning but �being allowed� to form five opposition state governments.
With the opposition commanding a large chunk of the seats in Parliament and with opposition supremo Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim constantly reminding how he is going to be the next Prime Minister by Sept 16, the public euphoria has seldom been this high.
�Some blogs and websites had nothing but high euphoria that a new dawn had begun for Malaysia,� said a Universiti Malaya academic, who is apolitical but who regularly reads the blogs and political websites.
�The March 8 results led people into believing a new era is born and their problems were resolved. People felt overjoyed,� she said. �I felt the same.�
Reality, however, hit the academic on one recent Sunday when she went to the wet market after a long time.
�I used to buy a whole chicken for RM5 but the same amount could buy only one-fifth of a chicken, if not less,� she said. �I saw a woman buy a leg and a wing for RM5 ? that�s all she could afford and she is trying to feed her family.�
�It took the wind out of me,� said the academic who earns more than RM12,000 a month.
Now it has taken familiar opposition figures like PKR MP for Kulim-Bandar Baru Zulkifli Noordin and PAS Youth leader Salahuddin Ayub, who led the protests last Saturday, to take the wind out of the March 8 euphoria with their insulting words and rough tactics to force the Bar Council to call off the forum.
Some Umno members also took part in the demonstration, which came hot on the heels of advice and warnings from national leaders, urging the Bar Council to call off the forum.
Even Anwar chipped in, urging the council to have only �closed door� forums.
They were reflecting the fear and possible deep unhappiness among Malays that the forum was encroaching on matters that are purely Islamic.
Their fear is made worse by widely held perception, rightly or wrongly, that sees the council as a non-Muslim body always raising issues involving Islam.
The incident has exposed PKR�s political vulnerabilities and how it is going to reconcile its inclusive political platform with the participation of individuals who are clearly non-inclusive.
One wonders how Zulkifli, who openly shows a missionary zeal for Islam, reconciles his deep personal beliefs with the PKR�s multi-racial platform.
Saturday�s incident shows reconciling is difficult if not impossible for Zulkifli although he is Anwar�s staunchest supporter and has been totally loyal to him through thick and thin.
It is a wonder, too, how Salahuddin and the PAS leadership would reconcile the fact that many non-Muslims had voted for PAS on March 8 and how they would see the party after it opened secret talks with Umno and after Saturday�s gate-crashing.
The Muslim protesters' argument that conversion to Islam is a purely Muslim matter and should not be discussed by non-Muslims is a narrow perspective that ignores the plight of the non-converting parent and the fate of their children.
It is an emotive issue for both Muslims and non-Muslims but without a solution in sight.
But the common law courts have consistently pushed the issue to the Syariah courts saying it involves Islam, and non-Muslims have consistently said they will not step into a Syariah court because they are non-Muslims.
Political leaders have also failed the people by shunting the issue from one committee to another without a comprehensive solution acceptable both to Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
Under the circumstances, it was left to such bodies like the Bar Council to raise the issue, organise forums and indirectly remind the authorities that the fundamental differences remain unresolved.
This and other such �sensitive� matters show how wide the gulf really is between the old Malaysia and the exuberance for the new emerging Malaysia as race and religion remain a explosive mixture. |
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calebdanvers
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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-RETRACTED POST-
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Last edited by calebdanvers on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rowanlim
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Judging the response of the childish demonstrators (shame to you buggers), utopia is a long way away...
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bebe_lulu87
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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ermm,just wanna add that the conflict regarding israel n palestine was never about apostasy or the conversion to islamic faith.it was never about that.it's always been bout the sacred land in which both muslims & jews happen to regard as their holy site and symbol of divinity
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